but i insist - returns

This is the Insist Twice Rule that I conjured up at the beginning of the year. It is on the old blog at this link but have a copy paste for your convenience. Parts that I added today will be coloured blue, cos I'm hard like that.

I'm not recycling this post for no reason - I want to relate it to other things. This is just bringing the people who have not seen this post up to speed, or those who have just plain forgotten 8D

**********

What's the general guideline for insisting to do stuff?

The most relevant example that comes to mind is paying on a date. How many times are you meant to insist before you allow for split billing?

In a progressive new world, gender equality is an issue prevalent in society's mindset. Women have the right to vote, equal pay for equal work, blah. Their opinions are just as important as men. They are individual people just as much as men. Is it a crime to think that some of these girls out there are actually offended if a guy relentlessly insists on paying for them? (Remember Lemesurier's story about her sister, and the guy that shouted her the toll on a road, and she got pissed off and flipped him off?)

If a girl was to pay for the entire meal (both the guy and the girl), the guy would be uncomfortable, a la "I am a guy, I can provide for myself kthanks."
By similar logic, I think there are definitely girls out there thinking "I am a girl, I can provide for myself kthanks"
There are also more traditional girls "Guys should pay for girls on dates, open the door, and other chivalry stuff. Always and forever. Cos that's cute and that's what those perfect guys do for their perfect girlfriends in a perfect world"
Even my mum asked me: "What the crap? You've never split the bill before? I always thought girls today were more independent and stuff." Barring the awkwardness of this remark, I must say it's impossible to generalise. Sure there are independent girls. Also there are traditional-viewed girls. So, in a world where it's too easy to offend, what do you do?

I have a "insist twice only" rule. Too little, you're a faggot, cos you seem unwilling to part with your money. Too much, you're a male equivalent of a bitch (also a faggot). So this is my flow chart (from a guy's perspective). This is all conjectural, maybe I got some stage wrong? Please tell me if you disagree with my views!

[Click read more for the flow chart]

@girls reading this. I'm sorry, I tried to keep the perspective neutral, but I got lazy and my concentration slipped. So most of this flowchart is dictacted from a guy/guykind's point of view. Sorry again, if it causes offence or makes it hard to read, I'll go and edit every pronoun :L

So to make this easier to read, each group of text is each stage in the conversation. I hope it's easy to read.
[Event] symbolises the title of the event.
{Description} is used to underline the background info
a) and b) are the possible outcomes, barring random acts of God or security guards going "pay or I eject your ass from this restaurant".

Since I love you all, I hyperlinked all of the stages. Please use it =D. You can click the hyperlink to go back to the top, or hit backspace on your keyboard to go back a step =D

[1. Meal is finished]
{Guy pulls out wallet. Or cash. Or gesture that lets the other person know that you intend on paying}
1a) Girl says nothing, or maybe says something nice. But lets you pay. -> Go to [End: Poor]
2a) Girl says "No! Blahh something I'm ladylike and polite". This is probably the expected reaction, just cos she is. And cos it's the reflex. A bit eager and stuck up/pampered if the girl's like "What, of course you pay! Duhh". -> Go to [2. First chance for witty stuff]

[2. First chance for witty stuff]
{This does not count as an "insist". It is merely a witty line that you say, because that's what you have to do. When they say "No" it usually is out of reflex politeness, they didn't even think about it}
2a) Girl smiles/whatever and lets the guy pay -> Go to [End: Poor]
2b) Girl insists that she pays her half. Not out of reflexes anymore, but probably still out of politeness.-> Go to [3: First Insist]
Click here to go back to the top!

[3: First Insist]
{Still lighthearted, make sure you have your second best witty line for this section. By now, they aren't acting out of reflexes. Maybe they are testing your chivalry. If you feel up to it, maybe ninja pay? Pay very quickly so they don't argue.}
3a) So you've still got a line up your sleeve. Deliver with a smile. Gently rest your hand on their wallet/purse so it gets pushed downwards. Oh hooray, you've done enough. Looks like it was just a test. Go to-> [End: Poor]
3b) Girl insists again! She may be actually forming logic by this stage, not just reflex politeness. Watch out, it is usually either genius logic, or something that makes so little sense that you wanna cry 8D. Go to [4: Second Insist]
Click here to go back to the top!

[4: Second insist]
{By now, they are either playing the "love test" thing, where they make it as hard as possible for the guy to do the right thing. Such as by insisting over and over again. The hyperbole of "love test" is that really horrible one, where the girl breaks up with the guy to see if he will ask her out again T.T
OR, alternatively, she is a feminist, or she feels that you've done enough, or SOMETHING, but she actually wants to pay. Either way, it starts to feel tense. No, the guy doesn't want to be tested. Or, No, the girl doesn't want to be treated like a child}
4a) You may/may not have a line. I don't blame you if you don't. You've probably used 2 or 3 already. Keep covering the wallet or purse, or you can just hold their arm or hand in a non-aggressive way. Like, nicely, or whatever the word is. Say something nice. Try to make her smile. Oh wonderfuls, this crap was over. Just in time, you were seriously running out of lines, and the guy waiting for you to pay is running out of patience. Go to -> [End: Poor]
4b) The insistings is actually coming with reasons and stuff "You've paid every other time!", or "I've got a job, I can pay for this!". By this stage, you have nothing left. The cashier is judging you for holding up the line by like a minute. It's time to wave the white flag. Go to -> [End: Surrender]
Click here to go back to the top!

**************************************************
[End: Poor]
Whether they made it easy or hard, whether you have depleted all or few of your witty line stockpile, whether you wasted 5 seconds or 50, you made it out alive, and with less money than when you went in. I'm sure this is considered a win, but I just need to think about it for a while to figure out why :L. But seriously, keeping her happy is more important than.. whatever you would've done with that $20.
Click here to go back to the top!

[End: Surrender]
Okay she's serious. She really thinks that she should be the one paying. You only insisted twice, so you're not TOO much of a condescending, "I'm a guy and I'm better than you and I can pay and you can't blah", just a guy who respects chivalry, but now knows that that isn't going to be a prevalent theme in your relationship.
Or, maybe she doesn't mind wasting the guy's time, the cashier's time, the people waiting in line's time, just to see if you will be bothered to adhere to the codes of chivalry. You implied once, asked once, insisted twice. That's pressing the point a total of FOUR times. Maybe it's sweeter to persist more, but at the same time also faggier cos guys are supposed to respect girl's decisions and opinions after all. You've used all your lines, and you can kinda feel that it's not lighthearted anymore, it's a more tense atmosphere.
Click here to go back to the top!
**************************************************

As you can see, I wholeheartedly believe that insisting twice is about the limit. I personally do not have the patience to keep retorting. The cashier is just glaring. The people behind are going "cute couple, now get the fuck out of the line so we can leave and do stuff". What do you guys/girls think? Is this rule great, is it the complete balls?
Guys: What do you do? Do you insist forever? Do you ninja-pay every time? Do you not insist at all (lol)?
Girls: Is twice enough? Should I up it to like 5 times or something? If so, how will I be able to tell when you ACTUALLY want to pay?

Also, what do you pay for/expect the guys to pay for? Sometimes if for some reason (and circumstances like this WILL arise) I'm already eating, cos the girl didn't feel hungry at the time, but now does, and wants to buy something. Are the guys supposed to abandon their meal to pay for the girl?
At shops/stores where the girl orders their own thing (like Subway, or other sandwich shops), how are the guys supposed to pay? And how do you do it in a way that doesn't make the girl look like a pampered bitch?
Are guys supposed to pay for random trinkets and clothes they buy in a shopping centre?

In the previous post I received a few comments that I totally agree with. Guys should not mind paying for everything on the first date. Also if it's an anniversary or her birthday, the guy shouldn't make her pay.

Hell, one girl even said that guys don't even NEED to insist to pay in the first place. I personally don't agree with this, and I do try always to insist twice. But sue me if I don't try hard afterwards.

It has also been noted that "you should know the girl well enough to pick up whether she actually wants to pay or not". To that, I say, yes I should. My personal indicator is that if they say stuff reflexively ("No, you don't have to!"), I usually wouldn't really count that as an insist. It's when they put weight behind their words ("Jeff, I want to pay for this one") or when it is backed by logical reasoning ("You've paid for every other date - we can split this") that they start really counting. It's dangerous ground to keep insisting, because, what, is their opinion invalid or something? Let the split the freaking bill already!

Whooo more comments: If the girl's meal costs more than the guys by a significant amount, the girl should pay for her own meal. If the girl's costs a little bit more, she can do something like shout the drinks.

And another good point is that the girl doesn't want to feel burdened by how much money the guy has spent on her. Also the tediousness of the insisting every time would eventually mess things up.

I would like to note here that all the comments that I wrote above were mentioned by at least one girl - That's not to say no guys backed up these views, but the ones that seem to support my case have all been stated by at least one girl. If my word isn't enough, you can check out the original comments

And so I'm done for today. I will follow this up with the intuitively named "tease twice rule", but I'll characteristically go into more depth than is necessary =P

Until next time, toodle-oo!