Firstly, I really am not qualified to make any judgments (and neither should anyone else feel they are) unless the entire Bible has been read. Merely because picking and choosing relevant verses is known as "confirmation bias". Which is, of course, not objective and a terrible way to approach "evidence".
Now, here are a few dotpoints on my personal beliefs gathered thus far:
- I am almost certain Jesus existed. However the reasoning I use pretty much disproves young Earth creationism - we use the BC / AD system. I don't know how much of the world Jesus was rumoured to have travelled, but such widespread adoption of his birth year cannot be purely attributed to hearsay. Like the whole freaking world uses it. In contrast, if young Earth creationism was actually true, why aren't we just in year ~6000? It's not that big a number and it seems illogical to not start from there if it were true.
- While I believe he existed, I don't believe that he was as magical as the legends have him be. Humans have a tendency to glorify greats and to brown-nose awesome people. Jesus, no doubt, would've been a very influential man with great charisma as well as very good ideas. I can't say for sure he never did those awesome things, but I can't bring myself to accept it.
We have a modern version of taking something good and glorifying it and making it seem better - it's called fan fiction. Plus, we humans have the ability to make up crazy shit like Chuck Norris jokes. - To me, proof that Jesus existed does not prove that Jesus did all the things the Bible said he did. That is a fallacy of the worst kind. Just because one fact is true (Jesus is real) doesn't mean that all the other facts are true (virgin mother, water into wine, walking on water, healing blind people, etc).
- Extra note - where are all the awesome magical things like angels and shit today? Why doesn't God just send one down? I think I actually would be converted to Christianity in one fell swoop if an angel came down from Heaven and told me the truth of the Gospel. Until that happens I'm only listening to other humans who really have no claim that they actually know any more than I do.
This post is pretty long so I'll chuck a break here for reading pleasure.
I have to contrast with science, of course. I still hold it in my opinion that religions like Christianity and science are mutually exclusive. Like, you can't be a good God believer and also believe that humans evolved from other primates (ie not special at all). You can't believe in young Earth creationism and also believe that Earth was just a lot of rocks drawn together by their own gravity over time. You can't believe incest increases likelihood of genetic problems and also believe in Adam + Eve. You can't believe in molecules and believe "water into wine". You can't simultaneously believe in miracles and like, maths. You can't hold strict requirements for evidence and then believe that the Bible is the only source you need for truth.
Of course there are Christian scientists, as people are apt to point out, but one comes at the cost of the other. Though chemists and physicists don't really have direct conflict with the Bible, I can't imagine a biologist that is also devoutly Christian. You either don't believe in the fundamentals of biology, or you accept that half the Bible is rubbish. If ever I can be bothered, I might go and compile a list of phenomena in the Bible that have conflicting explanations to science to highlight the exclusivity.
But I mention science because there are arguments that "religion sparks wars." I disagree with that. Extremism starts wars. Science -> Natural Selection -> Social Darwinism is surely an abuse of a scientific principle (as religious wars are an abuse of the Bible). So it's not fair to make that direct link between wars and religion.
I also mention science because I feel that science gathers all the evidence and tries to formulate an answer that fits; religion gathers all the answers and tries to formulate evidence that fits.
NEXTLY
I think the concept of God's will and his grand plan are very dangerous ways of thinking. Allow me to explain:
We have moral scenarios - I used the tried and tested "a train is hurtling towards 5 kids on a railway track. You are in the position to flip a switch, divert it to an abandoned, disused (for many years) track, where one kid is playing. Would you flip the switch?"
The way I presented it is that there is no guarantee that there would be a death one way or another - whether the kids can escape is beyond my knowledge as a question asker. I am just asking you whether you would flip the switch.
Which, of course, is one of the most morally demanding questions because of the uncertainty yay.
I found that Christianity has two main views - either the gross number of lives is important (flip the switch) or it doesn't matter what I choose cos that was God's will (go flip a coin).
God's will is a terrible way to deal with morals. Are murders and rapes and assaults all "part of God's will"? Is that what he wanted? If your mother was murdered and her remains unceremoniously spread around your house, would it comfort you that "God made this happen, ergo I should accept it?"
My personal consideration of this question is in the probabilities - the five kids would be on higher alert than the single kid on the abandoned track who doesn't suspect a thing. Also, five kids could get out in same or (more likely) faster time than the single kid can.
Though greater than that, I want to be a little responsible for the deaths as possible. If I flipped the switch, I would have changed what would've happened if I weren't there, making myself directly responsible for the train hurtling towards the single child. If I don't flip it, at least some responsibility lies with the 5 idiots on the track.
On a completely random note that has nothing to do with anything in this post:
I get this very uncomfortable feeling when an old person enthusiastically talks to me and they're all laughing and smiley but I have no fucking idea what they're trying to say, so I just smile awkwardly.
8 comments:
Okay, firstly I think it is absolutely awesome that you mentioned confirmation bias and that you shouldn't make a judgement on something you haven't read because that is one of my biggest qualms with people who make fun of Christianity and other stuff like that.
I'm going to go through your post chronologically so bear with me (y).
The existence of Jesus as a historical figure isn't really subject to much scrutiny because of the sheer amount of sources which say that Jesus was a man that lived in and around Galilee sometime during the first century. This along with the fact that a lot of these sources were written within 100 years of the event shows that Jesus did exist at least as a historical figure.
Now the miracles thing is something I probably can't convince you of but here goes nothing. The very definition of a miracle is something that is pretty much a one off. This directly contradicts scientific process which is to prove something through observation and repetition. Obviously these things can't really be done to an historical event so you have to prove them as a historical event much like a battle or war. In this case you look at miracles and what people at the time said about it. Now this isn't actually too much of a problem with Jesus because of the sheer amount of sources which talk directly about him there are plenty which also talk about miracles he performed. Not only this but these sources come from non-Christian sources if you want to look some up there is Tacitus a Roman historian and Josephus a Jewish historian both of which talk about miraculous things which Jesus did including the resurrection. That's sorta your third point as well because those two sources are not biblical.
Now where are all the miracles today? When you ask Christians this question you can get pretty much 2 responses so I will give you both. First one is that there aren't any miracles occurring today because there is no need for them. The miracles that Jesus performed and that occurred in the bible were foretold many hundreds of years before the deed was actually done. In this way the deed was simply fulfilling the scriptures which had dictated that the event would happen thus proving the scriptures true which was the real purpose of the miracles. Now that they have been fulfilled there is no more need of miracles and we have simply entered a time of waiting. If you didn't understand that then ask me about it at school I can probably explain better then.
Second explanation is that miracles are occurring today. You can read about this all the time. Stories about missionaries who are saved from by 'angles' who appeared around them when they were being attacked or about to be attacked and things like that. I'm personally very sceptical about things like this and would be very hesitant to accept stories like these as miracles but yeah that is another explanation. Also the bible says something about the whole "I actually would be converted to Christianity in one fell swoop if an angel came down from Heaven and told me the truth of the Gospel"
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
I don't really understand your last thing though.. Are you arguing the evils of believing in a grand plan or are you talking about benevolence vs omnipotence of God?
massive wall of text.. my bad
Perhaps I should be more explicit and mention that ANY person who talks about the Bible, Christian or not, who has not read the Bible in its entirety, is engaging in confirmation bias and more or less talking out of his/her ass.
And you seem oblivious that many people don't accept Jesus as a historical figure - but there are! People like claiming there are a "huge amount of sources" for the existence of Jesus. However the only two sources I ever hear people quote are Tacitus and Josephus. But not of the matter - other important God believing religions like Islam and Judaism believe that Jesus was a hectic prophet and a con artist, respectively. For some reason Christians don't particularly enjoy mentioning other scriptures for proof of Jesus's existence - I'm guessing because he doesn't do as much cool stuff as he does in the Christian Bible.
And yes, I may be speaking harshly, but there is no way to differentiate between "miracles" and "party tricks", if we have 3 sources.
I think if God really gave a shit if we believed in him or not, he'd've pulled another set of miracles some time around now. One person trooping around Israel leaving a following that lasted 2012 years is pretty impressive, but Christianity is losing ground. 32% of the world population "believes in Christianity". That's from census data, which is probably an overestimation of people who actually believe the importance of Jesus and the rest.
>“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Well actually if I saw prophets in real life, not some 2000 year old book, I would be greater swayed.
Plus if someone actually rises from the dead I'd be pretty damn impressed tyvm. Though I probably wouldn't attribute it to Christianity.
I'm indeed arguing the evils of believing in a grand plan as a way of externalising blame and guilt. Where all poor decisions you make were "meant to be" so fuck that shit I do whatever I like.
In fact if I had to choose an aspect of Christianity to believe, apart from the mere existence of a Jesus, I might as well believe in that grand plan crap so I can go "my steady disbelief and open cynicism will all go back and benefit him somehow. It's part of the plan. Why do you seek to go against his plan :O?"
I won't bother pressing points that you didn't address in the post, but feel free to tell me if you think I missed an important point in your comment. I'd like to think I can make a fair point against any argument except for "cos the Bible says so".
try this
http://www.gotquestions.org/fate-destiny.html
Anon, it's heartwarming that you think telling me what Christians are MEANT to believe stops many Christians from believing the "wrong" thing.
Linking to me proves that Christians are not MEANT to let the grand plan be a safety net. It is a fallacy, of course, to think that it would prove no Christians believe this is true. If anything, it just proves the inconsistent and wishy-washy nature of biblical interpretations.
After all, I am not the one with the dangerous belief. If you've read my older posts you know what I'd think of a god, should one exist.
The ones who need to see that link are the ones who quote a "grand plan" as a device for externalising blame.
1. in regards to creationism, science is the 'how' whereas religion is the 'why'. The Bible isn't meant to always be taken so literally, context has to be taken into account, and most of the Old Testament is story telling. I see nothing conflicting with the 7 days of creation and the billions of years that 'evolution' and that crap occurred. Like I said, science is the 'how''. i know it sounds biased, but i'm not even 100% certain of my faith, and there is a reason it is called faith.
2. your comments on God's will. You're given a choice as to how you live your life. Although he knows and controls what will happen, it makes sense if there is no time, you have the choice to do what you decide to do, and i know it seems a way to just rid yourself of worry/blame or something by saying, God is in control, but ultimately everything happens as it will even if we are not his puppet.
and yeah, religion may just be something to give us all meaning in life but like I said, that's why it's a faith.
Hey there =)
1) I'd like to think that without religion, you can still explain a great deal of "why's". Though it may not be as spectacular, that by no means it is less true.
I don't get how 7 days and evolution can coexist. I was bored a couple of years ago and I did read the first part of Genesis and it clearly says that God summoned Adam (in the image of himself iirc) and then stole his rib and made Eve. How does that not contradict evolution?
2) Now it seems unclear how much God actually controls. If he doesn't control all that much, what do we pray for?
And if he already knows what he's gonna do (presumably millenia in advance), how would praying change anything?
And yes faith's role in everyone's lives differ, and I don't want to come across as trying to undermine other's faith as much as just presenting my own opinion and seeing what everyone else thinks of it. Of course, if people want to present their own opinions, I have no problems with discussing them.
sorry for the copy-pasted text, but i think the paragraphs following can answer Q2 for you better than my own talk. Hopefully it helps!
Many people believe answered prayer is God granting a prayer request that is offered to Him. If a prayer request is not granted, it is understood as an “unanswered” prayer. However, this is an incorrect understanding of prayer. God answers every prayer that is lifted to Him. Sometimes God answers “no” or “wait.” God only promises to grant our prayers when we ask according to His will. “This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him” (1 John 5:14-15).
What does it mean to pray according to God’s will? Praying according to God’s will is praying for things that honor and glorify God and/or praying for what the Bible clearly reveals God’s will to be. If we pray for something that is not honoring to God or not God’s will for our lives, God will not give what we ask for. How can we know what God’s will is? God promises to give us wisdom when we ask for it. James 1:5 proclaims, “If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.” A good place to start is 1 Thessalonians 5:12-24, which outlines many things that are God’s will for us. The better we understand God’s Word, the better we will know what to pray for (John 15:7). The better we know what to pray for, the more often God will answer “yes” to our requests.
this ended way long ago LOL
but if God only grants prayers in accordance with his will, which will definitely happen because he is omnipotent and all-knowing and it follows his will is the best course of action, then why bother praying at all?
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